➤ But the absurd thing is that the illusion of scarcity is often just that, an illusion. You do actually have... you're middle class, you do have money, I mean, I... a lot of people own a car, they've bought a house, and yet there's this... I mean, if you really don't have a roof above your head, if you're hungry, then I get it, of course. But I feel like with us there's this scarcity that doesn't seem real.

➤ I think there's still some sort of scarcity, if you have a mortgage and buy an expensive car...
➤ Yeah...
➤ And then you have to keep your job where you... There's no easy way back.
➤ You create that scarcity yourself.
➤ Yes! There is actually no real scarcity, because in fact you have so much, right?
➤ Yes, yes. Too much.
➤ And then you hear people with a gigantic house and a super fancy car saying they don't have money. And they really mean it! They really believe that!

➤ Yeah, because you need to keep things turning, keep this machine running. And I don't know how to think your way out of that, either.

➤ I honestly think that... that we have too much for everyone to be able to create a better life together. We don't use our voice, and why not? We still have too much to lose. And in that sense I think, I really believe, that we still have too much. Too much to really be happy. My honest opinion. If we had less, or if we were to get close to the line between having enough to eat and not having enough, reaching the end of the month before the end of our paycheck — if you reach that line or go below it, then I think you'll be more inclined to join a protest, to let your voice be heard. Right now, I think that will be the only moment when people will finally take action. En masse. Then things will happen, because then they will stand up and say... A spark, and it's started.

➤ But I don't know if it has to be that way. I think most of all, for example, we need more time to be able to think. Because we're working all the time and afterwards we're too tired or we want to do our hobbies because we've earned... we want to do something that we've earned... So there is no space for reflection. I don't think we necessarily need less things, or to be on the edge of scarcity... If we're all afraid of scarcity, then we can't relax, we can't share, we can't create, we can't, just... And then you're going to keep more for yourself than you actually need.

➤ If you don't have enough to eat and drink, then you can't dedicate yourself to...